Bull Micral 45 - revival
Modérateurs : Papy.G, fneck, Carl
Bull Micral 45 - revival
Hallo from Moscow.
Saved the main board from this PC from gold diggers.
I couldn't find its case or at least ISA riser board. Just the motherboard itself. With onboard video (EGA?) and one ISA.
CPU is 80286 8MHz in PLCC package. No coprocessor. There were also some 30-pin SIMMs (must be 6x256k).
I have no experience with so ancient hardware so i hope you guys will help me a bit.
Up to now, I've reverse-engineered original PSU's pinout and transformed normal AT PSU connector correspondingly.
Since i don't have any ISA riser, I've installed my ISA16 Trident card (tested to work ok!) directly in that ISA slot and connected via VGA to the monitor.
Then I turned that on and couldn't get any picture.
BUT I have reaction of the keyboard. All leds blink twice and if i press NUM/SCROLL/CAPS, indicator does changes its state.
Also when i press the key on the back panel, it seems to reboot.
When I extract CPU or RAM, that doesn't happen, so this must be a sign of life.
What i tried: repositioning microswitches and jumpers near EGA output, other ISA video, other SIMM memory (now I've installed 2x1Mb).
Unhappily, there aren't any information about this PC. I could get some photos, but the quality is too low.
https://www.irif.fr/~yunes/divers/scrapyard/bull.html
I have one better photo but the board is ruined(
As far as i know, I will also need its config diskette (which I don't have).
I've found this site which has an image for B-M 40 (not my) and i hope it fits.
https://viric.name/oldcomps/bull40.html
Is this normal? What should i try?
Where to find any manual?
If you have that PC, could you publish some photos of its insides?
Saved the main board from this PC from gold diggers.
I couldn't find its case or at least ISA riser board. Just the motherboard itself. With onboard video (EGA?) and one ISA.
CPU is 80286 8MHz in PLCC package. No coprocessor. There were also some 30-pin SIMMs (must be 6x256k).
I have no experience with so ancient hardware so i hope you guys will help me a bit.
Up to now, I've reverse-engineered original PSU's pinout and transformed normal AT PSU connector correspondingly.
Since i don't have any ISA riser, I've installed my ISA16 Trident card (tested to work ok!) directly in that ISA slot and connected via VGA to the monitor.
Then I turned that on and couldn't get any picture.
BUT I have reaction of the keyboard. All leds blink twice and if i press NUM/SCROLL/CAPS, indicator does changes its state.
Also when i press the key on the back panel, it seems to reboot.
When I extract CPU or RAM, that doesn't happen, so this must be a sign of life.
What i tried: repositioning microswitches and jumpers near EGA output, other ISA video, other SIMM memory (now I've installed 2x1Mb).
Unhappily, there aren't any information about this PC. I could get some photos, but the quality is too low.
https://www.irif.fr/~yunes/divers/scrapyard/bull.html
I have one better photo but the board is ruined(
As far as i know, I will also need its config diskette (which I don't have).
I've found this site which has an image for B-M 40 (not my) and i hope it fits.
https://viric.name/oldcomps/bull40.html
Is this normal? What should i try?
Where to find any manual?
If you have that PC, could you publish some photos of its insides?
Dernière modification par Lenord le 25 mars 2019 15:45, modifié 1 fois.
- fneck
- Site Admin
- Messages : 17490
- Inscription : 01 avr. 2007 12:03
- Localisation : Drôme Provençale (26)
- Contact :
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
Hi Lenord, I have one of this PC, you can see some pictures here
https://www.system-cfg.com/detailcollec ... ?ident=184
https://www.system-cfg.com/detailcollec ... ?ident=184
Fabien https://www.system-cfg.com
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
Yep, I saw your photos but there aren't any photos of insides((
If i connect speaker properly, it might give some beeps.
Also as i understood, there should be 12MHz CPU in Model 45, but i have 8MHz (Siemens 80286-N)
Model 40 has 8MHz but the board is not the same.
If i connect speaker properly, it might give some beeps.
Also as i understood, there should be 12MHz CPU in Model 45, but i have 8MHz (Siemens 80286-N)
Model 40 has 8MHz but the board is not the same.
- fneck
- Site Admin
- Messages : 17490
- Inscription : 01 avr. 2007 12:03
- Localisation : Drôme Provençale (26)
- Contact :
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
I opened my micral BM45, I will take pictures a little later today or tomorrow.
Quickly I confirm that I have a 12 MHz model. Looking at your motherboard, we can see a 48 MHz quartz oscillator that makes me say that your processor also runs at 12 MHz.
The speaker is connected to P15 on pins 5 & 6.
Quickly I confirm that I have a 12 MHz model. Looking at your motherboard, we can see a 48 MHz quartz oscillator that makes me say that your processor also runs at 12 MHz.
The speaker is connected to P15 on pins 5 & 6.
Fabien https://www.system-cfg.com
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
Thank you.
Maybe I have "overclocked" variant.
By the way, it's getting rather hot quickly. Hard to hold a finger, so i expect >50°C
I will connect the speaker.
Also I think that P14 is battery because pins there are +5V and GND.
If there was standard 3.6V Ni-Mh battery like on 486 PCs, I could replace it with Li-ion 18650 which voltage is ~same.
But I don't know what's the purpose of P7 and P17 connectors.
On those photos i saw that there should be one more board (except riser) but i don't know its purpose. I think it's connected via P17.
Will it show something without that board? Without battery?
Found one more photo with visible riser and that board.
What should happen normally on start?
Also, I am not sure that P4 and P11 are really IDE, floppy and SCSI ports.
Maybe I have "overclocked" variant.
By the way, it's getting rather hot quickly. Hard to hold a finger, so i expect >50°C
I will connect the speaker.
Also I think that P14 is battery because pins there are +5V and GND.
If there was standard 3.6V Ni-Mh battery like on 486 PCs, I could replace it with Li-ion 18650 which voltage is ~same.
But I don't know what's the purpose of P7 and P17 connectors.
On those photos i saw that there should be one more board (except riser) but i don't know its purpose. I think it's connected via P17.
Will it show something without that board? Without battery?
Found one more photo with visible riser and that board.
What should happen normally on start?
Also, I am not sure that P4 and P11 are really IDE, floppy and SCSI ports.
- fneck
- Site Admin
- Messages : 17490
- Inscription : 01 avr. 2007 12:03
- Localisation : Drôme Provençale (26)
- Contact :
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
For the speaker, you'll probably have to add a 470 ohms potentiometer on P15 pins 1 et 4. This potentiometer on my BM45 is on the back of the case.
In my computer the battery is missing but the only free connector is P14, so I think it's this one.
P7 is for front LEDs, 1-2 is "power" and 3-4... I don't know. It is the right LED on this photo :
On my motherboard, the floppy is connected on P4 and the hard drive on a MFM board behing the riser. I don't know what is P17 and the other one near P4. Maybe an integrated MFM controller? P11 seems to be SCSI controler (NCR 53C80 beside).
In my computer the battery is missing but the only free connector is P14, so I think it's this one.
P7 is for front LEDs, 1-2 is "power" and 3-4... I don't know. It is the right LED on this photo :
On my motherboard, the floppy is connected on P4 and the hard drive on a MFM board behing the riser. I don't know what is P17 and the other one near P4. Maybe an integrated MFM controller? P11 seems to be SCSI controler (NCR 53C80 beside).
Fabien https://www.system-cfg.com
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
Maybe that is just volume regulator. I've connected the speaker without any extra resistance and it beeps ok.
So, your PC works normally without battery? And nothing connected to P14 or P17?
Concerning that MFM board, what's the port for its connection? I can't see where it goes.
Does your PC turn on normally without that MFM card (unplugged)?
I've recorded the video of startup process with all kind of beeps.
When I turn that on, it beeps twice and all KB leds blink twice (first of them is just kbd controller, it persists without CPU and RAM)
During this time, keyboard is reactive to num/scroll/caps keys.
Then it beeps once and eveything stucks, no reaction to keyboard.
When i press reset(?) key on backpanel, this sequence repeats but gives not one but two beeps at the end.
If i wait, it beeps 3-4 times and keyboard becomes responsive, forgot to do that in that video.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_ZLJdE ... sp=sharing
Since i don't have any MFM drives, it would be great if it has IDE onboard.
This port near P4 is very similar to IDE, but i saw a precaution on some local forums, that this might not be normal IDE but "IBM" proprietary with 5V and 12V inside which will burn any drive. According to my measurements, this port has +12V inside so it's true, nothing common with normal IDE((
SCSI is nice too but the only 50-pin thing i have is JAZ 1Gb drive.
I've tried to connect LEDs to P7 but seems that power led must be connected to 3-4 or 2-4 pins (it doesn't work at 1,2)
1,2,3 have some voltage and 4,5 are grounds.
I've connected the led to 3-4 and it works. Same for 2-4.
So, your PC works normally without battery? And nothing connected to P14 or P17?
Concerning that MFM board, what's the port for its connection? I can't see where it goes.
Does your PC turn on normally without that MFM card (unplugged)?
I've recorded the video of startup process with all kind of beeps.
When I turn that on, it beeps twice and all KB leds blink twice (first of them is just kbd controller, it persists without CPU and RAM)
During this time, keyboard is reactive to num/scroll/caps keys.
Then it beeps once and eveything stucks, no reaction to keyboard.
When i press reset(?) key on backpanel, this sequence repeats but gives not one but two beeps at the end.
If i wait, it beeps 3-4 times and keyboard becomes responsive, forgot to do that in that video.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_ZLJdE ... sp=sharing
Since i don't have any MFM drives, it would be great if it has IDE onboard.
This port near P4 is very similar to IDE, but i saw a precaution on some local forums, that this might not be normal IDE but "IBM" proprietary with 5V and 12V inside which will burn any drive. According to my measurements, this port has +12V inside so it's true, nothing common with normal IDE((
SCSI is nice too but the only 50-pin thing i have is JAZ 1Gb drive.
I've tried to connect LEDs to P7 but seems that power led must be connected to 3-4 or 2-4 pins (it doesn't work at 1,2)
1,2,3 have some voltage and 4,5 are grounds.
I've connected the led to 3-4 and it works. Same for 2-4.
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
Ready to describe startup process:
2 short beeps just upon start
1 beep at 5s
3-4 short beeps at 20s
1 beep at ~37s
Then no more beeps if i don't press anything.
When I press a key, PC beeps 15s later.
But if i press that key twice, PC beeps twice, at 15s and at 30s.
That behaviour is repeated likewise, e.g. for 3x and etc.
Moreover, after pressing lots of keys, it starts to beep periodically (T=15 seconds)
Also if i press too much of different keys, PC starts to beep each time i press one more (for some time).
Found that CTRL+ALT+DEL combination works.
PC also reacts when it's pressed.
It beeps once, then 3-4 times, then one more time so that seems to be partial reboot.
Something definitely happens there. But i can't see((
2 short beeps just upon start
1 beep at 5s
3-4 short beeps at 20s
1 beep at ~37s
Then no more beeps if i don't press anything.
When I press a key, PC beeps 15s later.
But if i press that key twice, PC beeps twice, at 15s and at 30s.
That behaviour is repeated likewise, e.g. for 3x and etc.
Moreover, after pressing lots of keys, it starts to beep periodically (T=15 seconds)
Also if i press too much of different keys, PC starts to beep each time i press one more (for some time).
Found that CTRL+ALT+DEL combination works.
PC also reacts when it's pressed.
It beeps once, then 3-4 times, then one more time so that seems to be partial reboot.
Something definitely happens there. But i can't see((
Dernière modification par Lenord le 23 mars 2019 14:41, modifié 2 fois.
- fneck
- Site Admin
- Messages : 17490
- Inscription : 01 avr. 2007 12:03
- Localisation : Drôme Provençale (26)
- Contact :
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
Some answers to your questions in photos.
The riser, MFM controller and connection between the 2 cards :
The processor, P14, P7, P15 and the switches on motherboard :
The EGA and switch connector, the volume potentiometer
And finally I find the battery, is a 7,2V lithium one, not rechargeable :
The riser, MFM controller and connection between the 2 cards :
The processor, P14, P7, P15 and the switches on motherboard :
The EGA and switch connector, the volume potentiometer
And finally I find the battery, is a 7,2V lithium one, not rechargeable :
Fabien https://www.system-cfg.com
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
- fneck
- Site Admin
- Messages : 17490
- Inscription : 01 avr. 2007 12:03
- Localisation : Drôme Provençale (26)
- Contact :
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
For now I have not started the computer. In fact I'm not sure I have an EGA screen available.
It would be necessary to know the position of the switches to install another graphic card, but I did not find any documentation.
It would be necessary to know the position of the switches to install another graphic card, but I did not find any documentation.
Fabien https://www.system-cfg.com
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
Thank you much!Some answer to your questions in photos.
According to your photos, P17 and "IDE" part of P4 aren't connected anywhere.
MFM controller card connects directly to ISA riser via that ribbon cable + extra 2-wire cable coming from J7 (riser) to J06 (controller).
I think, it's 12V power line.
One of the switches on my panel was not in the same position. Changing that did nothing.
Concerning those switches nearby EGA, there's not so much combinations (16) and most of them will work.For now I have not started the computer yet. In fact I'm not sure I have an EGA screen available.
It would be necessary to know the position of the switches to install another graphic card,
As far as i know, they are just for better compatibility of this EGA output.
But there should be MONO/COLOR jumper onboard, this one may affect second videocard.
I've found one 3-pin jumper JD01 (no reaction) and 2x 2-pin jumpers J1,J2 (installing first doesn't affect, removing second stops boot process).
So, all three jumpers have the same position as yours.
Wow, I've never seen so old Li-ION batteries. That will need two 18650s with a resistor as a replacement.
I still have some questions.
What else connects to that "MFM controller board" except 2 ribbons for HDD itself? I see blue & white cables.
What else connects to P15 excepting the speaker? I've connected the speaker to 1 and 6 and it works, but doesn't work at 5,6.
What is that round port on the I/O backpanel? Maybe it's S-Video or something like that with 9 pins. Maybe it's labeled on the case?
Ok then. If you have VGA ISA16 card, you could try installing that in riser.For now I have not started the computer. In fact I'm not sure I have an EGA screen available.
Or just try to turn it on without monitor and compare its beeps.
I've found only first pages of its manual in the internet((
Dernière modification par Lenord le 23 mars 2019 15:35, modifié 1 fois.
- fneck
- Site Admin
- Messages : 17490
- Inscription : 01 avr. 2007 12:03
- Localisation : Drôme Provençale (26)
- Contact :
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
Yes
YesMFM controller card connects directly to ISA riser via that ribbon cable + extra 2-wire cable coming from J7 (riser) to J06 (controller).
I think, it's 12V power line.
Blue and white cable are HDD LED on front panel.What else connects to that "MFM controller board" except 2 ribbons for HDD itself? I see blue & white cables.
Above I had written that the speaker was connected in 5-6 and potentiometer in 1-4. Probably by connecting 1-6 you have bypass the potentiometer.What else connects to P15 excepting the speaker? I've connected the speaker to 1 and 6 and it works, but doesn't work at 5,6.
Not S-Vidéo, is an InPort Microsoft mouse, you can see the chipset labeled "Microsoft 900110003 v1.1" on the motherboard.What is that round port on the I/O backpanel? Maybe it's S-Video or something like that with 9 pins. Maybe it's labeled on the case?
I will ask on board if someone here have some documentation.
Fabien https://www.system-cfg.com
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
Yes, I finally understood. Pins 4,5 are already connected together, then an addition of any resistance between 1-4 makes this circuit closed.Above I had written that the speaker was connected in 5-6 and potentiometer in 1-4. Probably by connecting 1-6 you have bypass the potentiometer.
That was made to separate potentiometer from the speaker itself.
I guess that the MFM controller board is just an ISA8 device with extra power line.Blue and white cable are HDD LED on front panel.
This ribbon interconnection has 50-pins and should be very close to 62-pin 8-bit ISA.
Therefore, it can be easily disconnected and PC should start normally without it.
Ok, I've never seen that mouse.Not S-Vidéo, is an InPort Microsoft mouse, you can see the chipset labeled "Microsoft 900110003 v1.1" on the motherboard.
Then i still have to do something with VGA or EGA.
I have no explanation why VGA doesn't work. This riser slot might not be a normal ISA.
And if you find any documentation, it would be very useful. Thank you.
- fneck
- Site Admin
- Messages : 17490
- Inscription : 01 avr. 2007 12:03
- Localisation : Drôme Provençale (26)
- Contact :
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
Yes it works
The memory count :
The error probably classic following the absence of battery :
And reboot with a 720 Ko floppy disk inserted :
And there big flash and smoke coming out of the power supply. The computer worked 3 minutes in all and I did not even have time to count the beeps.
What I can say thanks to the photos, is that it boots in CGA mode with my configuration of swithes.
The memory count :
The error probably classic following the absence of battery :
And reboot with a 720 Ko floppy disk inserted :
And there big flash and smoke coming out of the power supply. The computer worked 3 minutes in all and I did not even have time to count the beeps.
What I can say thanks to the photos, is that it boots in CGA mode with my configuration of swithes.
Fabien https://www.system-cfg.com
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Les bonnes pratiques de l'utilisateur du forum viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3
Re: Bull Micral 45 - revival
Wow. Did you hear any beeps? This is important, because i got three ISA16 videocards (Trident 9000A, Trident 9000C and Cirrus Logic CL-GD5424) and tried repositioning their jumpers.Yes it works
(...)
Trident 9000A was initial card, there are beeps like I described earlier.
But Trident 9000C with default jumpers and Cirrus Logic CL-GD5424 (has no jumpers) resulted in no beeps on start and keyboard reacts fine.
Removing one jumper near DIP memory on 9000C causes same beep symptoms like with (first) 9000A.
Maybe all of them are too modern and thus incompatible. But i don't have other VGA cards.
What is normal - beeps or no beeps?
Also tried another LCD monitor, no difference.
Maybe my board boots too but i don't have any CGA to see that.What I can say thanks to the photos, is that it boots in CGA mode with my configuration of swithes.
I hope that's only old PSU has collapsed. At least we got some pictures of what it should look alike)And there big flash and smoke coming out of the power supply. The computer worked 3 minutes in all and I did not even have time to count the beeps.
By the way, could you take a photo of PSU'S connector?